| 05 | POLITICS |
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| October 17, 1933 A meeting was held in the Office Senator Byrd of Virginia to discuss he proposed parkway connecting two National Parks, The Shenandoah National Park and the Smoky Mountain National Park. Present were:
Senator Byrd: The idea is that we shall extent this road four hundred more miles, approximating five hundred miles, following the crest of the mountains and connecting the two parks. The idea, I might say, originated with Mr. MacDonald of the Bureau of Public Roads, and we are here today to devise ways and means to consumate this great project which I believe when completed will be the greatest scenic road on the world. The President has been consulted about it and has expressed the deepest interest as has the Secretary of the Interior, and we have been requested today to present to the Public Works Administration a definite proposal for the money to be appropriated for this project. I will ask Mr. MacDonald, who first had this idea to make a statement to you. Mr. MacDonald : Mr. Chairman and gentlemen: Senator Byrd is rather over modest when he attributes the conception of this idea to me. It is one of the outgrowths of a conversation that this has taken place with Senator Byrd and others of Virginia and those States that are interested, and with Mr. Radcliffe and Mr. Straus of the Public Works Administration, and numerous other individuals have already taken part in the bringing into a rather definite concept this whole idea. I should be the last to claim any personal credit for the idea as actually it seems to me that underlying this project is the necessity to provide, or rather to make available, certain facilities which we have, and to which we have not in the past given as much weight as I think we are justified in giving. We find that this highway, for example, runs through the Southern States where the summer conditions are for long periods very difficult for people to live under and go about their daily work for the number of hours every day which are now necessary to earn a living, and we have in these mountains an opportunity for a break in the monotony of hot days and hot nights in a cooler climate and more invigorating atmosphere for a very large number of people who live within easy driving distance of the road. The Government has, over a long period of years, as a national policy, developed and made available to the people of the country great Parks existing largely in the West. For the people of the East to use these National Parks and National Forests a long trip is necessary. Only recently has the Federal Government as a policy turned toward the development of the National Parks and National Forests in the Eastern part of the country, which do not have perhaps the same degree of attractiveness or scenic value from the natural standpoint, but do have the advantage of lying close to largely populated centers. It seems it would be only natural that, if we develop a highway of this character, we would have it used by a number of people that is perhaps now beyond our comprehension. I think that the Park Service, and certainly ourselves, will agree that when the highway was started in the Shenandoah Park we had little conception of the proportion of the public that would evidence interest in a roadway. To us it was just another road, another highway, that was to be turned into the National Park, but people seem to find great relief when they turn toward the height - in this case a twenty five hundred if not more in height. It gives them a tremendous appreciation of the Park, and so I think we have a great benefit to be derived for a very large number of people through the development of roads of this character. There is perhaps somewhat of a change in our concept of the value f recreational facilities that is offered by a development of this kind - that is that people can make a trip for a weekend, a night, or a week, or for a longer period, and be traveling into a new country. Most people are not available often to pick up the family and go to the Yellowstone or Yosemite, but here it would be possible for them to spend a night, or a week end in any part of this area. I am not sure but what in the future some of the best things we do for humanity will consist of just this sort of thing - leading people into a higher altitude and giving them the right kind of surroundings to offset the enervating influences of the lower altitudes. Now as Senator Byrd has said, this project fortunately would lie largely in the Government land, through the National Park areas or the National Forest area, for some four hundred miles as outlined on the map - as an idea rather than as any set project. This provides in Virginia for about 293 miles total on the Government land and 164 not on Government land. Senator Byrd: Does that include the additional 100 miles? Mr. MacDonald: Yes. In Tennessee this would mean 92 miles on Government land and 19 not on Government land, a total length of 103 miles, and for North Carolina about 140 miles. The concept as it is based on this particular map, however, is merely an idea, and to indicate the approximate general line. When Mr. Spellman was getting the maps together and asked about location he stated he thought probably the first showing that should be made on the map would be to draw approximately a straight line between the two Parks as being the shortest distance between two points and then follow with the proposed line of the highway where it is practical to do so. I am not enthusiastic about the proposal to build the road as a toll road. It seems to me there are enough concessions, or perhaps other income that could be obtained from the operation of the road to permit a considerable part of the financing to be carried by the return that would come to the Government from them over a long period of time. To me such a highway would stimulate travel into the Great Smoky National Park, and would lead the people who are touring the Shenandoah Park into the Southern areas and into sections of the country that have not been well explored and have not participated in the benefits of the tourist travel. I think the same thing applies to the areas of Virginia. The first Sunday - or possibly it was the second Sunday - that the section of the road was opened to traffic I left the Park about six o'clock. We had had dinner in the Park and while we were hungry did not think we would want anything more than a sandwich, and had to drive all the way to Little Washington to find someone who had some bread left. We had to get clear out of the Park area to get anything to eat. I do not know that there is much more that I can say about this project, Senator Byrd, except that it would represent, if completed, a very close cooperative effort between the Government and the Stated affected. Of course we would expect the State Highway Departments to carry a considerable part of the burden. Up to the present time all the work that has been done in the Shenandoah National Park, for the 42 miles already built, has represented a total expenditure of about six hundred thousand dollars. Senator Byrd: How much more is available? Mr. MacDonald: I do not recall the exact amount. About two million dollars is available. We have expanded already just a little more than one half million dollars and we will have to add to that surfacing, about a couple of thousand more, - about $79,900. The number of people that will be accommodated on that forty mile section already built, and accommodated continuously - I think it will be used in winter as well as summer - so that the number of people within driving distance of this parkway where they would use some parts of it almost continuously, should make possible a lower cost for the individual using this facility. Lots of our road in the West have about two hundred vehicles per day in continuous traffic, a good sizable traffic, but we should have a tremendous traffic on a project of this kind because it is continuous to people. Senator Byrd: There is one question I would like to ask you. You say the present forty miles has cost about $24,000 a mile. Why do you estimate $40,00 on the new part? Is it more expensive construction? Mr. MacDonald: Senator Byrd, the estimate of $40,000 is more nearly what we believe the road will actually cost and we do not wish to underestimate the project. That we have found productive of more criticism - to lead people to believe an undertaking of this kind could be put though on a lower cost, and then after the surveys have been made we have to go back and say we could not do it for that amount. We do not believe the standards used in the Shenandoah National Park are as high as they should be. We ought to have a fast. We surveyed that road with the idea of building a forty mile road. Senator Reynolds: What is the width of the road in the forty mile project? Mr. MacDonald: What we call our 16 foot standard. It was surveyed as 20 feet in width. The new section is designed for 30 feet. That is one reason for the increase in cost. Senator Reynolds: Where do you enter the 100 miles? Mr. MacDonald: At Gainesville. This is only about forty miles from Washington. It is thirty two miles from Gainesville to Front Royal, the northern entrance to the park, which is within sixty five miles of Washington. Senator Reynolds: Where does the 100 mile stretch end? Mr. MacDonald: At Spottswood. Senator Byrd, having you any other questions? Senator Byrd: Thank you Mr. MacDonald. I believe we should hear from Mr. Cammerer, who is doubly interested and most cooperative. Mr. Cammerer: Of course it is the first time I have ever seen anything in the way of a road connecting two National Parks. I have not had an opportunity to consult the Secretary on this, but I understand you said he is very much in favor of it. I do not see how anybody could object to a parkway connection between two parks. Mr. MacDonald has mentioned the fact that so very few of the Eastern people have the chance to see the Western Parks. This is a matter that has always impressed me. We have about four million visitors to the Western Parks, and about three million of them came from the immediate surrounding section. It takes too long for people from the East to make the trip. That was the primary reason for the establishment of the Eastern Parks. Mr. Cammerer spoke of the establishment of supplementary Parks by the several States and of the continuation of Parks by the Federal Government. He spoke of the excellent road built in the Shenandoah Park by the Bureau of Public Roads, but did not agree that the proposed parkway should be a speed road, which would encourage its use by trucks, and so forth, when in his opinion it would be primarily for tourists. He suggested it would be a good idea to have the Smoky Mountain road go around ion both sides, making a terminus, but this, he said, was a master that would have to be worked out. Mr. Cammerer called attention to the George Washington Highway, and said he would like to see the Parkway continued to the Capital City, which is the gateway to Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee. He said he would like to see such a road connected as much as possible, if it is possible, with the great scenic and historic places along the way. Mr. Cammerer said he thought such a road would be very popular here in the East and that it was much needed. He spoke of the great population east of the Mississippi that would be taken care of through the establishment of such a Parkway. He said there are already more visitors going into the National Parks in the East than were ever expected, but that they were not as yet, prepared to take care of them because they could not prepare a single acre of ground for public use until the Parks were turned over to them. Mr. Cammerer expressed the opinion that there was nothing that would do so much for the people, or give them more pleasure, whether they had two days or two weeks to spend there, than the National Parks. He said such a Parkway as that proposed would not only benefit the population of great Eastern cities such as Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia and New York, but also open up the country to such cities as Cleveland, Cincinnati and other in the middle West. Senator Byrd: We have with us Mr. Radcliffe, Regional Director of Public Works. Mr. Radcliffe, we will be very glad to hear from you. Mr. Radcliffe: Senator Byrd and gentlemen: I have not made any personal study of the situation. I have been immensely interested ever since I have been Regional Advisor, and have been very much interested in what I have heard in regard to the proposed plans. I do not know of any project involving several states as this does which seems to have met with more nearly unanimous approval. I think I am probably conservative in this. I think I can say with entire accuracy I have not heard any objection to it, although we are not familiar with the plans except in a general way. I want to say as Regional Director I will be delighted to try to work along on any plans which are suitable in regard to this Parkway, and try to do my bit. Mr. Straus is associated with me as a member of my Advisory Board. We have about ten men in Baltimore who are giving their time as volunteers - engineers - lawyers - and business men - who are giving their time, and who I am sure I can count on for their cooperation in regard to anything we may do as far as it is possible and suitable for the Regional Advisory Office to participate. Senator Byrd: Mr. Straus, we would like to hear from you. Mr. Straus: This is an opportunity to get behind this project due to the fact of regional conditions. If the three States can form their Committees, and have a Regional Advisor at the head, I think you will get further than if you have just one such behind the project, so my suggestion to Senator Byrd is to form a plan of that kind, selecting the Highway Engineers or the Heads of the Highway Department from each State to serve on the Committee. I suggest that the Governors appoint the Committee and then work in cooperation with those interested. I might say I want to thank Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Spellman for the work done in furnishing the plan. This plan is only a tentative plan, but just as I said before, will enable us to get the project working. Senator Byrd: We would like to hear from a representative of North Carolina, Senator Reynolds. Senator Reynolds: Mr. Chairman, it is quite unnecessary for me to tell you and these gentlemen who have assembled here how much I am interested in this matter. I want to say we have with us here today our Chairman of the State Highway Commission of North Carolina, Mr. E. B. Jeffress. On yesterday I had occasion to talk with him pertaining to this meeting, and he likewise is very vitally interested in it. I believe you have been advised by the Governor of North Carolina that his interest is with us. I am particularly interested in this project because I believe that all of our great National Park developments have taken place west of the Mississippi River, and that east of the Mississippi River we have but one or two small parks. I am interested because I believe that about seventy five percent of the population of the United States is within a motor ride of fourteen hours to the entrance of this Park. I believe further that the greatest industry in the world is not the buildings of automobiles, the steel, the mill or the tobacco industry, but statistics will show you that the largest industry on earth is the tourist industry. If I am not mistaken in 1929, followed by 1930, the American tourist spent at home and abroad something like five billion dollars. In 1929 and 1930 statistics will show more money was expended in travel to the automobile man, the gasoline man, and various and sundry others interested in tourist travel than in any other thing in the United States of America. We want to get these tourists in Virginia, Tennessee and North Carolina. I for one want to extent to Mr. MacDonald my heartfelt appreciation of what he has done to help this along, and it is my belief that everyone who sits within the sound of my voice is also appreciative of Mr. MacDonald for creating this idea, as are all others who live within the three States through which this highway will pass. I believe it will mean a great deal to North Carolina and know it will mean a great deal to Virginia, and likewise our sister State of Tennessee, and I believe I have the privilege here today - that is to say the right to express my idea, and our Commissioner's idea, in saying we all will give you, Senator Byrd, all the cooperation we possible can. The sooner we can put this into actual progress toward the development of this 550 to 600 miles of highways the better it will be for our nation and the South. I thank you, Senator Byrd, for giving me this opportunity of expressing my interest in this matter. Senator Byrd: Mr. Jeffress, we would like to hear from you. Mr. Jeffress expressed his interest and the desire of the Highway Commission of North Carolina to cooperate. He suggested, however, that the highway run directly south from Roanoke to the North Carolina line, and follow the crest of the Blue Ridge to the point where the Blue Ridge turns east, and from there around by Mount Mitchell into Asheville, and by Waynesville into the Smoky Mountain National Park. The return route would be from the western entrance of the Smoky Mountain National Park, through Tennessee to Bristol and back into the road at Roanoke. Mr. Jeffress said if this were done a good deal of excellent road already built in North Carolina could be utilized. He also stated he was very much in favor of extending the parkway to Washington. Senator Byrd: Does anyone else from North Carolina desire to make a statement? Mr. Gwyn: I want to say a word for Congressman Doughton. He lives on the top of the Blue Ridge where this proposed route would reach. He does not get his mail on Sunday and has no telephone, and did not receive notice of this meeting until possibly sometime Monday. In a long telephone conversation with him he asked me to impress upon you gentlemen his regret at not being here. He said he was with you one hundred percent and hoped there would not be any adverse action. He could not be here and regretted this very much. Mr. Page: Senator Bailey is very much interested. He regrets he is unfortunately unable to be present today. Senator Byrd: He is represented by his secretary. I believe the Chairman of the Highway Commission of Tennessee is with us. Mr. Goets said he had been delegated to represent the State Highway Commission of Tennessee and to express its interest. He also said the Governor of Tennessee would cooperate, and he and the Commission would do everything in their power. He agrees with Mr. Jeffress' plan as being a better routing through Tennessee. Senator Byrd: Now, Gentlemen, we have to have a method of going ahead at once. I want to make this suggestion for your consideration that we have a general committee with Mr. Radcliffe as its chairman. The reason I suggest Mr. Radcliffe is that he is the man from whom we must get the money. The rest of the committee I would suggest be composed of Mr. MacDonald, Chief of the Bureau of Public Roads, Mr. Cammerer, Director of National Parks, and the Chairman of the State Highway Commissions of the States affected - Tennessee, North Carolina and Virginia, which committees will have general charge of the project. Then I think the Governor of the respective States should be asked to appoint a special committee of five from each State, the sub-committee simply to work within the borders of its respective State. I recognize the great importance of this general committee. It is vitally important to the States to have a proper location of the road, and I know of no fairer method than to have Mr. Radcliffe, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Cammerer, and the Chairman of the Highway Commissions on the general committee. Mr. Radcliffe: I am delighted to attempt anything you gentlemen want me to do. As /regional Director I will be interested anyway in the work, and will try to do what I can in connection with it. I do not live in any of the three States, and that may be an objection, but I can see reasons why it would be advisable to set up a general committee. Senator Byrd: I know I speak for all of us here when I express the hope that you will accept the chairmanship. Senator Reynolds: We insist that he accept it. He is unquestionably the proper man. Senator Byrd: I hope you gentlemen will frankly express your opinion about my suggestion. If you have a better one do not hesitate to express it. We have to have some organization, as you know, to work through. I would like to hear form North Carolina, Senator Reynolds, do you approve the plan? Senator Reynolds: I do. Senator Byrd: Mr. Goets? Mr. Goets: I think your plans are entirely satisfactory. Senator Byrd: If there is no objection the motion will be in order to name the members of this committee. Mr. Kircher: I represent the United States Forest Service, and this road will go through three or four of the National Forests. That is I suppose it will as it is a ridge road and most of the mountains in the region are within the National Forests. May I suggest that you place Major R. Y. Stuart, Chief Forester, on that committee? Senator Byrd: I think that is a very important suggestion. I am sorry I overlooked it and thank you very much for the suggestion. The motion is that a committee composed of Mr. Radcliffe, chairman, Mr. MacDonald, Mr. Cammerer, Major Stuart and the Highway Commissioners of the three States be selected. We may include in the same motion with your permission that the Governor of each State appoint a sub-committee of five with respect to local matters in the States. They are not to be members of the general committee. Is the motion seconded as amended? The motion was seconded. Senator Byrd: Is there any further discussion? If not the motion will be adopted. It was adopted. Senator Byrd: Now the next thing before us is to present to the Secretary of the Interior a plan, and I would like Colonel Anderson to present the pan he has devised. Colonel Anderson: Mr. Chairman, I have been working on this project for some days and have had the pleasure of conferring with Mr. MacDonald and others including the officials of the Regional Advisory Board and the State engineers of North Carolina and Tennessee. It seems to me that not only what route we follow be laid down by this committee, but that also the method of financing should probably be left to the same committee. Anticipating difficulty we prepared three plans, two of which we do not think anything of at all because they put tolls on the road. Senator Byrd: Explain the one you approve leaving out the others. Colonel Anderson: It is to consider this as a Federal project - a Parkway connection two great National Parks in the East, and let it be financed entirely as a Federal project, with the assistance of the Highway Department of the several States. Senator Byrd: What is the amount involved? Mr. Radcliffe: The amount requested it $16,600,000 based on the 414 miles of estimated mileage at $40,000 a mile. It is estimated this will furnish four thousand men employment for two years. We have estimated a twenty foot roadway with six foot shoulders, making a total of thirty two feet, and one thousand foot right of way. There was a further and general discussion of the project. It was decided that the meeting would not endeavor to mark the route in the proposal. The project did not include the road to Washington, but only to the entrance of the Shenandoah National Park, and it was suggested that addenda be added stating the committee would add a supplemental suggestion about the mileage in the connection with the National Capital. Mr. Jeffress suggested that with an allotment of $20,000,000 with Washington as the base the project could be started. Colonel Anderson was asked to make some changes on his report, which report is not included here as it has been changed. Mr. Miller: While Colonel Anderson is fixing his report I would like to ask why, if they only want a thirty foot road they would have to have a thousand foot right of way. I understand it is to control it and prevent the putting up of signs, I wish someone who knows about it would explain. Mr. Cammerer: I do not know what has been planned, but certainly you can but scenic easements which would serve just as well. Mr. Wirth: I would like to answer the question. That was taken more or less out of the air as a basis of the amount of land that would be needed to construct a Parkway. It would protect the Parkway and the scenery. In some places you would want to expand in order to make an automobile parking development. In other places you would want to cut down to a few hundred feet. That would all have to be worked out in the final plans, but I think about a thousand feet shout be the estimate for the land needed. Senator Byrd suggested that the proposal should be signed that day. Mr. Radcliffe: As a matter of procedure, how would it be for several of us to see Secretary Ickes today and present to him very briefly what the idea is, and the further statement that a proposition should be handed him tomorrow in more definite shape. A letter was prepared submitting the proposal to the Secretary of the Interior. Senator Byrd: Unless there is something further the meeting can adjourn and the committee we have appointed can take the other questions. I thank you all so much for coming.
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